Jacobites upset

It appears that the last film has lost me a few followers north of the border. Jill warned me that it might but having spent the past three summers in Scotland and been here through the independence vote I have had many whisky fuelled conversations with my fellow sailors up here.

 

I have been told a lot of stuff that seemed hard to believe - so this winter I set about reading some books about the clearances, William Wallace, Robert the Bruce and  the Jacobite rebellion.

It seems to me that there is a fair amount of re-writing of Scottish history - a narrative of British Oppression, Ethnic Cleansing and lionisation/demonisation of certain figures of history.

It turns out that over the past few years, mainly since the rise of the Scottish Nationalist Party, there has been some re-interpreting of Scottish history - much of it from the Mel Gibson (Braveheartism) school of history.

 

When I went to Peterhead I came across the statue and that was what kicked off the little item. It is probably no worse and no better than items in previous films about the French, The Dutch, The Germans and the English

Peterhead was a real Jacobite town and there is this marvellous statue of this bloke
#

 

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usbiography/k/jameskeith.html

The first sign of trouble was this email

Mr. Winter:

Having enjoyed one of your DVD's, and then numerous YouTube videos, I now depart your company.
 
You have lost touch with the reason for your sojourn and are now among the self-serving "YOUtubers"
who think we watch because of you. . . .pitty Old Man. . . .
 
Carry on in your own selfish way and keep your MOB blather to yourself.

 

then this thread kicked off on YBW

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?437179-Dylan-has-lost-a-fan

 

it was kicked off by our wully, who despite taking his name form a humorous comic book character appears to have experiences a loss of humour

 

"I found his latest film ignorant and insulting.He will receive no farther support from me. "

the thread went a bit anti-KTL for a while with quite a few Scottish sailors wading in and expressing how insulted they were.
black pig said
"I gave up on Dylan when he tried to rip off Google/youtube by asking people to click on the adds so he would get paid, and then complained when he got caught. "
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?437179-Dylan-has-lost-a-fan#MjroLXiYFU45qxLD.99
Fantasie 19 said
I've watched a goodly number of Dylan's films but I thought this one was a bit week... the bottled history and 45 versions of "over the sea to skye" was just padding for what was actually very little sailing which surely is the main (not only) reason for watching ... well for me anyway.... I get the impression Dylan's struggling a bit with getting good film in Scotland - the weather seems to be the main issue..
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?437179-Dylan-has-lost-a-fan/page2#KSYkuKFPkGl0etdx.99
among the mud slinging and expressions of support came this
Dylan,I've waited a day before commenting (other than on the common error re. the SBS) to calm down. I can entirely understand Wullie's annoyance. Delivery of a selectively factual rant in a one-sided didactic fashion is not the best way to endear yourself to those against whom you rail. Portraying the complexities of 17th and 18th century dynastic and religious politics as "the Scots" versus "the English" is hopelessly simplistic -and completely misleading. So, in an attempt to give some balance and to fill in some of the gaps, I would like to add the following to your account.

1. The Jacobite story started with the invasion of England in 1688 by William of Orange. His mainly protestant army included many Scottish exiles. On its march from Torbay to London it was joined by significant elements of the English army of James VII and II. If the invasion had failed, all those taking part would doubtlessly have been labelled traitors and been dealt with accordingly. But they won, King James escaped to France, and William and Mary were installed as joint King & Queen in 1689 in what became known as the Glorious Revolution, but was in fact a political stitch up by the English Parliament. It was alleged that the throne was vacant because the king had abdicated - which was untrue. The Scottish Parliament met later and considered letters from both William and James. William's was the more persuasive, and the Scottish parliament voted in favour of him, but interestingly, not on the basis that James had abdicated, but that he had broken his contract with the people of Scotland and had thus forfeited his right to the crown. Commissioners were sent to William and Mary offering them the Scottish crown provided certain conditions were accepted. The crown was accepted, but it is unclear whether the conditions were agreed to - an issue that would later cast doubt on the legitimacy of their reign in Scotland.

2. The Scottish parliament was not unanimous in its support for William. A sizeable faction under Viscount Dundee (also known as Bluidy Clavers because of his ruthless suppression of the Covenanters) held out for James and raised an army in the highlands to fight for him. James was by then in Ireland, holding court in Dublin, planning an invasion of Scotland and England to recover his lost kingdoms, and sending an army against the protestants in the north of Ireland. The first Jacobite conflict (which was curiously never referred to as a rising) was therefore in 1689. At the battle of Killiecrankie in July Dundee decisively beat the government forces under General Mackay, but died the following day. The following month, at the exceptionally bloody battle of Dunkeld, the Jacobites and a new Cameronian government army fought each other to a standstill. In May 1690 the last of the Jacobite army was routed at Cromdale and in July James was decisively beaten by William at the Battle of the Boyne. The first Jacobite conflict was over.

3. The Massacre of Glencoe in 1692 derived from the turmoil left in the highlands and is a story worth reading up in its own right, but it is worth noting here that the order for the extirpation of the McDonalds was signed by King William. A subsequent enquiry established by the Scottish Parliament in 1693 reported in 1695 that the government had "barbarously killed men under trust". The secretary of state, Dalrympole, resigned but all others involved - particularly William - were exonerated.

4. I'll skip over Queen Mary's death in 1694; the Darian Scheme of 1698 - 1700 (with William's orders to the English colonies forbidding trade with the Scots colonists and his support of Spanish military action against them); the death of James in 1701 and the recognition of his son by Luis XIV of France as King James VIII and III of Great Britain; the Act of Succession passed by the English Parliament in 1701 conferring the thrones of England and Ireland following the deaths of William and Anne to Sophie of Hanover and her heirs; King William's death and Queen Anne's accession in 1702; the Scottish Parliament's Acts of Security of 1703 and 1704 asserting Scotland's right to determine the succession of the Scots crown; the retaliatory English Parliament's Alien Act of 1705; the Treaty of Union of 1707; and the Earl of Mar's 1713 resolution to have the Act of Union repealed.

5. In the first Jacobite rising in 1708 the Pretender and his French supporters were prevented from landing in Fife by a navel squadron commanded by Byng. Historians are of the opinion that if he could have landed the rising might well have succeeded. In fact the response by Westminster to the threat was to extend the English penalty for treason (hanging, drawing and quartering) to the rest of the UK.

6. Queen Anne died in 1714 and was succeeded by George, Elector of Hanover. He was not popular, particularly in Scotland, and there was a seldom reported Jacobite rising in the west of England. The exiled James published a declaration in which he promised "to relieve our Subjects in Scotland from the hardships they groan under on account of the late unhappy Union, and to restore the Kingdom to its ancient free and independent state."

7. In September 1715 the Earl of Mar raised King James' standard at Braemar and attracted an army of 10,000, roughly equally from Highlands and Lowlands, fighting for Scotland's independence and the restoration of the Stuart dynasty, and greatly outnumbering the government army of 4,000 under the Duke of Argyll. The Battle of Sherrifmuir in November was indecisive, with 300 dead on each side, and both sides withdrew. James landed at Peterhead in December, but he brought no money, troops or equipment. Mar took him to Aberdeen, Dundee and Perth where he set up court. The Duke of Argyll was now reinforced by 6,000 Dutch troops and the Jacobites retreated and dispersed, James taking a boat from Montrose for Flanders. (I can find no record of a Jacobite army reaching Carlisle in 1715.) The 1715 rising was over.

8. The 1719 rising was instigated by Spain, in revenge for Admiral Byng's destruction of the Spanish fleet the previous year. The idea was to land in Scotland as a diversion simultaneously with an invasion of England. The main invasion fleet suffered a fate similar to the 1588 armada, but the two frigates for Scotland with 327 troops and weapons to arm 2000 arrived at Stornoway in April under the command of Lord Keith, Earl Marischall of Scotland. They were joined by Jacobite exiles from France under the Marquis of Tullibardine carrying James' commission. The two commanders fell out: each thought he should be in charge, and much time was lost. They eventually crossed the Minch and landed at Eilean Donan Castle, Loch Duich. An attempt to raise the clans yielded only 1,000 men, and on 10 June they took up a defensive position in Glen Shiel to meet the well equipped government army marching from Inverness. The battle was short, with the Jacobites having no defence against government mortars and the terrain not allowing their normal charge, so they retreated with relatively light casualties. Most, including all the leaders escaped. The Spanish troops surrendered, were well treated, and sent home to Spain in October. The 1719 rising was over.

9. The story of the 1745 - 1746 rising is well known, so I won't amplify it much here. I cannot find any record of the atrocities which you allege were carried out by both sides, but there is evidence of significant differences between the behaviour of the opposing armies. In September 1745 the Jacobites won the battle of Prestonpans in 10 minutes, killing 150 government troops and capturing 1,500 for a loss of 30. The prisoners were treated well and many of them joined the Jacobite army. In November Carlisle surrendered to the Jacobites and its disarmed garrison was allowed to leave unharmed. On returning to Carlisle in December Charles insisted on leaving a garrison of 400 - mainly men from Manchester - behind as the army retreated north. When the government army took the town the men of the Jacobite garrison were summarily executed. In February 1746 the garrisons at Inverness and Fort Augustus surrendered to the Jacobites and in each case was disarmed and released. In April, the aftermath of the Jacobites' defeat at Cullodon was arguably the worst atrocity committed by a British army, with the indiscriminate slaughter of the wounded, fleeing clansmen and civilians - including women and children - continuing in the surrounding countryside for days.

10. You describe Field Marshall Keith as "an English spy", but I cannot for the life of me see why. There is a useful potted biography here:

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.u...ameskeith.html

He was a professional soldier - a mercinary - which at the time was not uncommon. There is the tale of Russian and Turkish armies meeting and their respective commanders having a parley. They discovered that they had attended the same school in Aberdeenshire...

Hope the above is useful. Do keep up the good work.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?437179-Dylan-has-lost-a-fan/page5#0IUh2u5zykAKqJpS.99

 

 

 

 

 

This is about Dylan Winter's Blog.

16 Responses to “Jacobites upset”

  1. 3 August, 2015 at 10:32 amPhilip Orchard says:

    South of the Border (the home my ancestors) / North of the Border (the home of my wife’s ancestors) it made no difference, as both were ultimately considered equally bad and a little while later (okay a century and a bit) both our ancestors families decamped to New Zealand where, by all accounts, to this day the English and the Scots survive amicably side by side.

    On our visit to Culloden Moor in 1988 we ceremoniously stood at each end decrying each other’s ancestry but it was cold and wet (familiar eh Dylan) so we decamped to a local pub and signed a peace treaty.

  2. 3 August, 2015 at 12:49 pmWarren says:

    We all have thin skins for one subject or another I guess.
    I did read the the YBW forum postings….. Does seem to be just a few folks going round and round, same handles keep coming up ( many with their own little advertising attached!)
    Enjoyed the film on Vimeo , youtube link would not work in US , have to give another go, direct thru youtube.?
    If this stirs some folks up , just like the other interesting history stories, French Dutch etc
    just wait until you get to Ireland! Wales? Or even the Isle of Man!
    I know you put a great deal of research into you films, your are a pro hack after all, folks who know about this subject (not me) should think about what you found out , why do they think they know better ?, they weren’t their either.
    (Clearly some people like guy above do know the subject but it’s redicliously complex , I tried researching the recent HBO series on Henry VIII, which had highly flawed history but fun story. The research is hard work and results were all over the map)

    Now quick where is that download button? Better get my copy quick before they ban it! Ha! ( already bunged some pennies).
    Don’t change a thing, your perspective is a breath of fresh air in a sea of stinking fish!
    Cheers Warren

  3. 3 August, 2015 at 12:59 pmWarren says:

    Could not open season 8 p2 on you tube but direct thru Vimeo working (not using freeman link).
    So maybe the US scots will be chiming in soon….but many of them left to get away from the bull sh*t (and famine) so may not care or even know anything.
    Sorry last post was so long!
    Warren

  4. 3 August, 2015 at 1:33 pmDrew says:

    I should not worry about it Dylan
    History is in the eye of the auther, whether the auther be contempary with the events or writing a couple of hunderd years later. They all, whether nowingly or not end up putting their own spin on events, often in the case of histirical research, on who is paying the bill.
    A balanced view of any historical event is a very rare thing indeed.
    Just keep doing what you are.
    Cheers Drew

  5. 3 August, 2015 at 3:18 pmTed B. (Charging Rhino) says:

    Not surprising.
    Go anywhere that involves places or artifacts of the American Civil War and you will have similar controversies over — and differences in personal POVs of the — “real truth”. And we are still have massive debates and protests here over the display of the Confederate Battle flag and it’s meaning today.

    Buck-up, cheer-up, and keep-up the good works.
    And be true to your own POV. That’s what gives value to a personal journey.

  6. 3 August, 2015 at 9:38 pmEuan Mckenzie says:

    Some folk lack perspective and have truly lost their sense of humor. Sadly those in favour of nationalism have a small subgroup who are among the worst and wont hear a bad word said even in jest. . FWIW I enjoyed it.

    They also tend to fly defaced ensigns and vigorously encourage others to also do so. It takes all sorts :)

  7. 3 August, 2015 at 10:53 pmPaul Mullings says:

    Sticks and stones….

  8. 4 August, 2015 at 2:35 amRichard Filbrandt says:

    I cant believe some people, Get A Grip to them. Your Vids are fantastic and I learn something new in every single Vid you post. Your vids even started my mid-life-crisis inspiring me to buy the boat I had wanted for years.

    Keep up the good work Dylan :) Keep them coming.

  9. 4 August, 2015 at 10:00 amdylan winter says:

    send snap of boat asap

    D

  10. 4 August, 2015 at 11:31 amZoran says:

    Dylan,
    I am not in any of the camps (South of the Border / North of the Border ) but I must say that I skipped over part of the film – too many version of that song…… – no one would probably miss anything if you left some of that out….. on a more bright note – my walet is not so dry anymore so there will be some money coming to you from this side of the pond, to compensate at least for all those nice hours watching your videos during a long canadian winter….. cheers, z.

  11. 4 August, 2015 at 12:44 pmdylan winter says:

    I will have another look. I often change the films a little – vimeo allows me to re-upload changed films to the same url

    D

  12. 4 August, 2015 at 6:52 pmdave says:

    Dylan:

    the history shared is wonderful stuff. not everyone knows the ins-and-outs of the places you visit. all history is an interpretation and historians can’t agree. also said that the winner writes the history.

    being of Scottish ancestry, Scobie (Sept of the Clan Mackay), i know a bit more than the average American. even then the perspectives from my relatives still living in Scotland differ based on their opinions of and family experiences many many many years ago.

    i had a wonderful visit, for a month, back in July of 2000. spent a good amount of time in the highlands. wounder place. in 2000 there was record heat and little rain (from a Scottish perspective).

  13. 5 August, 2015 at 3:27 pmJustin says:

    I never saw the film. Has it been removed?

    With so many responses I’d like to see it.

  14. 5 August, 2015 at 9:52 pmWarren says:

    Check the Rattery head season 8 pt2 video
    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/keepturningleft-season-8-part-2-peterhead-to-fraserburgh/
    Or go direct to vimeo and look up under “keepturningleft season 8” As you search
    Warren

  15. 6 August, 2015 at 12:10 pmsalty sailor says:

    Rubish, simply rubbish. Make your videos, go sailing, enjoy the view, share with us your inventions, your favorite books, wine and food.Dylan, be careful with Ireland, never know which “side” will take exceptions to your ranting.

  16. 7 August, 2015 at 4:38 pmSteve says:

    You can’t please all of the people all of the time,and some people are simply insecure. Anyone who thinks that Scotland would be better off out of the Union is mistaken in my opinion. I think the nationalist thing is all about a select few seeking power.
    Anyway,no matter how pleasant or historically accurate one is,there will ALWAYS be a virulent few! It’s all laughable really!
    Keep the vids.,photos and pithy comments coming,many of us enjoy them immensely. I would pay attention to the comment relating to the island off our western shores though!
    Good luck,fair winds and not too much rain!
    What’s the pie situation like up there by the way?

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